# Rick Rubin on 'Less is More' in Art & Def Jam's Authentic Origins
**Source:** https://youtu.be/g6MEDOY7tHo?si=pRIzR9ebWA78gK3Q

## Summary

Rick Rubin discusses his profound philosophy of 'less is more' in creative endeavors, stressing that critical curation is essential for achieving impact. He recounts the early days of Def Jam, detailing how his passionate, unpolished approach to producing hip-hop aimed to authentically capture the underground club energy, contrasting it with generic commercial productions.

- Rick Rubin champions the philosophy that 'less is more,' but emphasizes that achieving true minimalism requires 'doing more' in critical curation to ensure each element carries significant weight.
- He illustrates this with music production, contrasting a 'wall of guitars' which sounds generic with a single, well-played guitar that reveals personality and human touch.
- Rubin didn't perceive his early work as 'work' but rather as a 'mission and a love,' indicating a deep intrinsic motivation driving his creative process.
- At 18, he started Def Jam in his dorm room, driven by a passion for hip-hop and a desire to capture the authentic, raw energy of club performances that commercial records lacked.
- His first record, 'It's Yours,' aimed to document the stripped-down club scene (scratching, breakbeats, drum machines, rapping), and its success stemmed from his amateur approach, which allowed it to be true to hip-hop's essence, unlike polished 'professional' outsider productions.
- 'It's Yours' sold approximately 100,000 copies over 18 months, becoming a hit despite hip-hop not being widely acknowledged as legitimate music at the time, drawing parallels to how rock and roll was initially dismissed.
- Rubin consistently listened to a wide range of music and sought to understand the influences of artists he admired, highlighting a continuous learning and exploration mindset.
- He believed commercial hip-hop records of the era were like 'Hollywood versions'—polished and unrepresentative—whereas his goal was to create a 'documentary' of the actual scene.

## Transcript

[[0:02]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2s) - Five years ago,
I read this biography of you. It's called "In the Studio." You and I were just talking about
it before we started recording. One of my favorite ideas that
I took away from that book, that I think about probably every week, is this concept that you
have that less is more, but to get less, you have to do more. Can you talk a little bit about that? - Yeah. If you're stacking a lot of
things on top of each other, each one of those things
becomes less important. So, if you have 10 things, each one of them is one-tenth
as important as one by itself. So, if you're making something and you
want the least amount involved, those things have to be
really critically curated, because they're doing the work of
everything, and nothing is hidden. It's why it's not as easy
as it sounds to do less. But when you see it, you can get the personality.

[[1:04]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=64s) I'll give you an example with guitars. A lot of recordings are made
where the guitarist plays, and then they double it and triple it,
and they create this wall of guitars. And when there's a wall of guitars, you hear guitar, but you don't
hear someone playing guitar. You just hear the guitar.
It becomes more generic. When one person plays it, and you can
hear their fingers on the strings, it's got more personality.
It's more human. And I tend to look for those things where
it's the singular essence shows through. - What I'm always surprised about
people that do great things, I think, especially from
people on the outside, it's the amount of
volume that goes into it before you're presented
with their finished work. - Mm-hmm. - You were obsessed with music
when you were a teenager. You start Def Jam in your dorm room.
You were like 18 years old. What was the first example?
Was it LL Cool J? Who was the first example
where you're like, "Wow, there's a lot more work that
goes into making a great piece of art, great product, great album
than I ever knew"?

[[2:10]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=130s) - I never thought about it because
it was like a mission and a love, and I didn't think of it even as work. It was just what I wanted to do,
is make these things. So, the fact that it took a lot of work wasn't even in consideration at all. - When you were 18 years old, 19 years
old, it was just all music all the time? - Yeah. As a fan, I listened
 to music all the time. I fell in love with it. I wanted to be involved in
whatever way that I could. Hip-hop was just starting
in New York City. It was still a totally
underground movement, so the only place you could hear it was at one club downtown
where I was going to school. There was only one club that you could
hear hip-hop, and that was once a week. But other than that, it was only
in the Bronx; it was in Brooklyn. But really, just in community
centers and outdoor parties. It was underground and not
well-thought-of kind of music.

[[3:14]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=194s) It was street music.
- Mm-hmm. - And I would go to this club every week
and hear the music, and at that time, there would be a few hip-hop records coming out, 12-inch singles.
- Mm-hmm. - No albums, only 12-inch singles. And there may be one new record
every two or three weeks, and that's all there was. And I would go to the club every week,
hear the music there, and then I would buy the one single
that would come out every few weeks. And the singles didn't represent
what the energy in the club was, and I wanted to feel
that energy of the club. So, I started. The first record
I made was called "It's Yours," and the purpose of that was, I was just trying to capture
the energy of the club on record. And I didn't know
anything about recording. I wasn't a professional.
You know, I was a kid. The fact that I didn't
know what I was doing allowed it to be true
to what hip-hop was.

[[4:15]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=255s) Whereas, all of the records that were
coming out, the few and far between 12-inch singles every few weeks, they were made by professionals
who made other kinds of music. They weren't made by hip-hop people. So, an outsider with experience was
making what they thought hip-hop was. But if you went to the club-
- Mm-hmm. - you knew what it really was. And the club was very stripped down,
and it was scratching, break beats, drum machines, and rapping. And that's what the records were. - The ones that were produced by people producing other or making
other genres of music, was it too much polish? Was it fake? How would you describe the difference between what you were hearing in the club?
- Yeah. - So, this is your opportunity,
essentially, your way into this. - The records are like a documentary
of the scene that was going on, and all of the other
documents of that period weren't representative of the scene. They were representative
of something else. The professional, like,
the Hollywood version of it. But that's not what it was.

[[5:16]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=316s) - Is this the first single you put out? It sold 100,000 copies,
or is that the same one? - Yeah, something
like that. It sold a lot. I mean, for a record in that world,
it took a long time. Probably took 18 months to sell 100,000. But over 18 months,
it sold about 100,000, and it was a hit,
as much of a hit could be in something that would
never be on the radio, and the kind of music that
nobody listened to or liked. As a matter of fact, back then, most people who were not hip-hop
fans didn't even acknowledge it as music. That's how far it was. - What'd they think it was? - Don't know. It was the same thing,
though, with Elvis and rock and roll. The grown-ups didn't
acknowledge that as music. It was just some other thing that
they didn't know what it was. - Okay, that's...
- That's how foreign it was. - When you were 18 or 19 years old, were you already studying
older versions of music? You were already going back. - I always listened. Anything
I liked, I wanted to hear everything that the person that I liked, everything they listened to,
that they liked.

[[6:18]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=378s) I always wanted to understand. - I do the same thing with biographies. - Yeah. - So, I want to know more about this,
but I'll find somebody that... You know, like Steve Jobs, for example,
I find him very interesting. I read a biography of him, and then in every single one of these
books they'll talk about half a dozen, maybe a dozen people,
and I'm like, "Who's that? I don't know this guy."
- Yeah. - And I'll go in the bibliography, and usually find books about
the people that inspired them. - Same. - Do you remember the
first time you did that? Who were you, like, "I'm really
interested in this band or this artist. Let me find out who
they were inspired by?" - It's always been the case. Or the other version
of it is, it's like it, where I would hear
something for the first time. I can remember the
first time I heard The MC5, which is a band from
Detroit, in the 1960s, a kind of proto-punk rock band. They're before punk rock,
but it has punk energy. And I heard that,
and it was really cool. And then I remember going
to a used record store because the used record store
had all the cool older stuff, and they knew the most about music.

[[7:18]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=438s) So, you spend hours in used record stores and just talking to the
people who work there. Same like you've heard Quentin
Tarantino working in a video shop, and just there's so much information around the people who
really love this thing. And I remember they said,
"Well, if you like The MC5, you might want to check out
Iggy and The Stooges." And then I listened to The Stooges,
like, "Oh, I love this too." And that was another, also Detroit,
same time frame, same scene, and it was great music. So, it would either be music like
the music that I found that I liked, or music that inspired
the music that I liked. Both of those were things
I would always pursue. - I want to tell you about the presenting
sponsor of this podcast, Ramp. I have been reading a lot
about SpaceX lately. SpaceX is one of the most valuable
private businesses in the world, and one of the main themes
in the history of SpaceX is constantly attacking and
questioning your cost. Ramp helps many of the most innovative
businesses in the world do exactly that. The median company running on
Ramp cuts their expenses by 5%.

[[8:21]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=501s) And one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is that a religious dedication
to controlling costs can help actually increase revenue because you can pursue
opportunities you couldn't otherwise, and we see that in the Ramp data, too. The median company running on Ramp
also grows their revenue by 16%. So, when you're running your business
on Ramp and your competitors are not, you have a massive competitive
advantage that compounds over time. Ramp is the only platform designed to
make your finance team faster and happier. Many of the top founders and CEOs
I know run their business on Ramp. I run my business on Ramp, and you should too. Go to ramp.com to learn how
they can help your business save time, save money,
and grow revenue. That is ramp.com. I always think, like, the motivations. I always want to know why people
are doing what they're doing. I think the motivations
of what they're doing, the reason that they go into their
chosen profession is really important. You thought music was
going to be like a hobby. You were going to have to get a day job- - Yeah. - and then just do music. 
- I didn't know it was possible to be a job. - Yeah. Can you talk about that? - Yeah. I thought I would
have a regular job.

[[9:21]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=561s) I didn't know anyone who did music
professionally, or I couldn't imagine it. And no one in my family was an artist,
so it wasn't a realistic expectation, so I thought I'd love music
the way I always have. I could participate and
make music if I want. But I would have a job to support myself because I didn't think that that was
possible for music to support my life. - You were in a band, right?
- Mm-hmm. - You played, I think guitar.
- Guitar. In a punk rock band,
so it was very rudimentary. - Yeah, and then DJ.
I'm still a little confused. Can you try to explain the path that led you to this very singular
position that you have now? - Yeah. I just always followed what
was interesting to me at the time. So, when punk rock came along... Well, first, before punk rock
would be heavy metal. Heavy metal, at that time,
was really more like hard rock than what we think of now as heavy metal. So, it would be Aerosmith,
AC/DC, Ted Nugent.

[[10:23]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=623s) Those were kind of the mainstays
of what arena rock was like when I was 13 or 14 years old. And I loved that music, and then I got
a guitar and tried to play along, and it didn't go well. But then, when punk rock came along, it was easier for me to play along
because it was more basic music. - But how do you go from that to...
Is DJ the next route in? - The next thing that happened was in my interest in hip-hop in high school, there were some kids... No one in my high school
liked punk rock, except me, but there were some
kids who liked hip-hop. And this was, again, in the
very, very, very early days of hip-hop. - I think that's an understatement.
I mean, the beginning of hip-hop. Because I remember reading about
the early founding of Def Jam. - Yeah. - And then, always, when I'm reading 
books, I write out the year that I'm in, and then I look up what
year that person was born.

[[11:24]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=684s) It's like, okay, how old is Rick at this
point that's happening in his life? And what was remarkable was when I
was reading your book, I had read... This is after I read
Jay-Z's book, "Decoded." - Mm-hmm. - And Jay-Z, 10 years after
your starting Def Jam, is talking about the early days of
hip-hop when he got into it, which is a decade after you got into it. - Yeah. - And he says something 
that's really great. He's just like, "I definitely couldn't
tell you that I could get rich from rap." - Yeah. - "I just knew that hip-hop was going to get a lot bigger before it goes away."
- Yeah. Yeah. - That's a decade later
than where you're at. - And where I was, I would not
have said it'll ever get big. I was in the stage where... I'm going to make this,
and the few people who like this will all like it, and that's it. There was no upside. There was no thinking that
anybody else is going to like this. That's how underground it was. - Is LL Cool J the first
person you produced? - The first hip-hop record I produced
was T La Rock, "It's Yours" - Okay. - It was one single. - That's the one that sold 100,000 copies- - Yeah.
- in 18 months. - And then LL's first record was
 the first record after that.

[[12:28]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=748s) - But which is the one where you put
"Reduced by Rick Rubin" on the sleeve, and then your dorm room address? - Yeah. I think all of them probably
had the dorm room address, because that's where I lived. And "Reduced by," I probably said it
for the first time on LL's record. - This is the thing that
I am fascinated with. It's like it's less is more, but to
get less, you have to do more. This stripping away of everything
that's just almost like religious devotion to simplicity and timeless ideas. You were 19, 18 years old
when you put that on his record. - Well, I thought about the
idea of "Produced by," and I thought the word meant to build up. Like, I think of production as building. And really, what I was doing
was taking apart and reducing. I thought maybe reducing would be... "Reduced by" is more accurate in
this case, and that's how it happened. - So, he brings you a song,
and there's just too... Like, what are you taking away?
- Well, in those days, there weren't songs.

[[13:33]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=813s) He would just have notebooks of lyrics. And they weren't in song order;
it was just rhymes. And we would look at all the
lyrics together and say, "Is there something here that
could be the basis of a song?" Like, I need a beat, for example, that could be a repeated phrase
that ends up being a hook. And the reason, like, many of the hip-hop
records before the Def Jam records were somebody would start rapping,
and then they would rap for a few minutes, and then they would finish rapping. It wasn't like a song.
It was more like a monologue. - Almost like spoken word to a beat? - Kind of, but it was still in the rap
style, but it wasn't in a song structure. It was like Jamaican toasting. But the fact that I grew up on
The Beatles and loved The Beatles, and my understanding of music
is based on The Beatles. And The Beatles were the
greatest songwriters ever. And the structure of their songs
are really organized and tight.

[[14:39]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=879s) So, based on what I knew,
from listening to The Beatles, I applied that to rap music
so that it would be structured more like a Beatles song, instead of a
monologue or a Jamaican toasting record. - Okay, so there is four decades separating when you're working
with LL Cool J and today. How similar or different from what... Like, if you're working
with an artist today, how different is what you're
doing with that artist today, compared to what you did
with LL four decades ago? - Probably not so different.
It's probably pretty similar. It just depends on the artist. Like, because LL was a solo rap artist, and he didn't have a band or make music, I was responsible for making the tracks. And my version of that was a very
stripped-down, minimal thing. But now, I get to work with bands
sometimes that have a big sound, and there are a lot of players, and I'm looking for the essence
of each of these artists, and the essence tends to be stripped down, but it's stripped down to what they are.

[[15:49]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=949s) Just finished a new
album with The Strokes, and they're a band of five people. So, it sounds like a band of five people,
doesn't sound less than that. - Mm-hmm. - It sounds like what they are. - You have this idea of ruthless edit. I've heard you talk about it-
- Yeah. - a few times on podcasts.
- Yeah. - Can you explain what that is? - Sometimes, for the
sake of the whole work, removing things about it that you
really love is part of the process. And instead of... If you have 100%, and you know at the
end you want to have 70% of what you have, like you have 30% too much, instead of whittling down
that 30% to get to the 70%, I would say reduce it to 40%, let's say. Force yourself to get to 40%, and then add back what's
needed to get to the 70%.

[[16:49]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1009s) And it works in a different way. You have a better understanding
of the work after the ruthless edit, because you find out,
especially with a group, because in a group, everybody votes. So, with the Red Hot Chili Peppers, for an album we might
record 40 or 50 songs, and then all of us vote on A, B, or C. And then, if everyone
picks it as an A song, that's going to be on the album. If it's really divided, it might not be. You know, it'll be a democratic process until we get down to what
does everyone together think is the best thing that we can make? That's a ruthless editing process. - And you're just looking for the essence
of what you think could be great. So, in that case, you're recording,
let's say, 50 songs. - Yeah.
- And you say the album wants to have 10 or 12.
- Yeah. Yeah. - Well, there might be three
that we can't live without. - Yeah. - Is that the thought process? - It helps to get to that point of what
are the ones you can't live without, however few it is,
and build from there.

[[17:54]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1074s) Build out from there. - What other interests do
you have outside of music? Like, are you into architecture? The reason I ask you that is,
like, is there anybody else in different domains that you
still have a passion for, that you see that uses
similar ideas that you do? - In every domain, there are people
who make beautiful things. I like people who make beautiful things. - But are you saying that
their thought process... Do you find similarities between their thought process and your push for work?
- Yeah. I think it's all the same. I think most of what I do
is not really about music. I happen to work in music,
but it's not about the music. Does that make sense? - It does, but say more about this. - You're at Shangri-La,
and you walk through the space, and you see it doesn't feel like
other places you've been. - Yeah. - It has the same aesthetic as the records
I make, or the things that I work on, the things that I like,
things that I buy. You know, the objects I buy
would have the same aesthetic. So, it's all fitting into,
I'd say, a worldview.

[[18:54]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1134s) - Yeah, I feel this way too,
because I mean, we talked right before we started
recording about podcasting. I think we both have the
same obsession with it, and I've had my first
podcast for over a decade. And it started out,
just me reading biographies of people that built businesses. But over time, I realized this
same personality type, it's like the artist, the entrepreneur,
the filmmaker, the musician. I've done podcasts on all of these
kinds of people, and I'm like, "I don't see any distinction between them."
- It's the same. - Yeah. - It's the same.
- Yeah. - It's all the creative spirit. - I want to, like...
I have a bunch of selfish things I told you I wanted to talk to you about because there's just some people that
have made massive impacts on my life. I told you, I grew up
listening to hip-hop, it's all I listen to this day. I listen to more podcasts
than I listen to music now. But it really put a voice, like,
words to a feeling I had, even maybe in my subconscious. - Mm. - Eminem was the first one that I was... I heard his first album, and I was
just like, "This is how I feel." I didn't grow up in a
trailer park in Michigan, but I know exactly what you're talking
about with certain things with your family or certain things of just coming of age.

[[19:58]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1198s) I heard you say one time,
"I'm obsessed with..." I want to spend time with him and
hopefully get him to record a podcast. I know this would be very difficult. But especially for you,
who've worked with the best, the best of the best people
over almost half a century, and for you to say that he might
be the most obsessive artist- - Yeah.
- that you've ever worked for. It was like, I literally screenshotted
that and saved it on my phone, and I look at it all the time. Why did you say that? Can you just tell me about what
it's like working with him? - It feels like his entire life is
centered around writing words. He's totally preoccupied with that,
so he always has a notebook. He's always making little notes. He writes tiny, in tiny letters,
and he's always making notes. And at one point I asked him, because he's got notebooks
and notebooks and notebooks, and I said, "Are you
working on a new song?" He's like, "No, I'm just keeping active in the skill set." And I said, "Are you
going to put those in a song?" He's probably said 90% of it
will never be in a song. He's just writing, just writing.

[[20:59]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1259s) And that's what he does. He writes. - Does he apply that to other elements of
making a song, though, not just writing? Because he does a lot of
his own production, right? - He does, and I would say
the same type of obsessive. It's what makes him great.
He's obsessed. - Have you come across anybody that you
consider great that's not obsessed? - I'm sure there are. I'd have to think about it,
but that's not the only way to do it. For some people,
it happens in a more natural way, and for some people it's more of a... Work ethic is always a part of it. But for some people, work ethic is
the reason they are who they are, and there are other people
who are just incredibly talented and have enough work ethic
to get over the finish line. - What do you think it's for you? - I don't like to quit.
I like to see things through. When I start something,
I like to see what it can be. - From the outside, because you have
this whole very relaxed Zen vibe.

[[22:00]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1320s) - Yeah. - But I swear, I think
underneath is a workaholic. - Oh, for sure.
- Okay. - For sure. I'm a lazy workaholic. - A lazy workaholic. No, you got to say
more about that. - That's what it is. - Because it doesn't
feel like work? Explain. - No, no, no. I have to force myself
to do it, but I do force myself. My demeanor would be to do nothing. - Rick, I don't believe that.
- It's true. - No, you love this too much, though.
What do you mean? - That's the point. So, I love
the beautiful thing, and it takes a lot of work
to get to the beautiful thing. - You like the end result? Is that what you're saying?
- Yeah, I like to get there. I like to get to the point where it's like "Okay, press the send button
 and share it with the world." - Mm-hmm.
- That's a great feeling. I like it enough
for you to get to hear it. - Okay. - But all of the work
up until then, it's like, "Oh my God, I have to
go to the studio today." - That's surprising to me.
- Yeah. It's like, it's such a beautiful day.
- I thought... - Wouldn't it be nice to just go out
and have lunch with friends?

[[23:00]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1380s) But my whole life has been,
you know, most of my life, the first 25 years, was in a
dark room for 16 hours a day, seven days a week in
New York City working on music. - No, you'd rather be out here barefoot,
butt naked in the sun, I think. - Now. But not then. Not then. - Okay. - You know, I like being outside.
I like having fun with friends. I like hanging out with my family. - Do you like making podcasts
more than music now? - I don't know if it's I like it more. I like the people I get to meet, and I'm interested in
learning about people. I like learning how people think,
their vision to make something, how they follow through to make it,
and learning the rollercoaster ride, that journey of building things,
how it worked, where it didn't work, what ideas they thought may
have worked that didn't, when they were surprised in the process.

[[24:02]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1442s) It's all interesting to me. - I want to pull on this for a
little bit if you don't mind. - Yeah. - So, I heard Billie Eilish's brother, who I think they have
a close collaboration with. - Mm-hmm. - So, he was describing the
difference between him and Billie. He said that he enjoyed the
process of making music. She enjoyed having made the music. - Yeah. - So, are you more
like Billie in that case? Like, you like that it's done? - I think so. I'll say I like
the moment of revelation. So, we're working on something,
it's just okay, it's boring. I'd probably rather not be there.
That's how it feels. But then something happens, and it's like magic,
like something appears. It's not like "we made it." It's like something
comes up in the process. It's conjured in the process
that's like a miracle.

[[25:05]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1505s) And that's the thing that's addictive. That feeling when it's like it's not good, it's not good, it's not good,
it's not good. We try this, we try this. This doesn't work,
this doesn't work, this doesn't work,
and it could be a mistake. The machine could not work. We can hear something.
"Oh, the machine broke." But what we're listening to is
really cool all of a sudden. That's the feeling,
that moment of discovery where it goes from nothing
to something really good, and then the whole rest
of the process after that is protecting that because
it's super delicate. - Mm-hmm. - When it happens, it's like this miracle
happened and this magic thing happened, and now we have to protect it through
the rest of the process to not ruin it. When it comes together, let's say a band is playing and
doing take after take after take. When it's really good,
we all kind of look at each other, like, as they're playing, like it's scary
because you don't want it to end.

[[26:06]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1566s) Like, you don't want it to stop, because
we know if it stops, we can't control it. We can't do it again. It's not like that. It's this moment in time where
something magical happens, so we spend a lot of time waiting
for those, and I can't say that's fun. It's not fun. It just takes a lot of patience.
- Do you have to force yourself to do it? - Yeah. - Have you ever just
gave up in that moment, and just walked away for a little bit? - Mm-mm. - Okay, so you do have this really...
- Yeah, good work ethic. - You have work ethic and discipline.
- Yeah. - Okay. But it would still be,
if you could... - It's frustrating and boring and
takes a great deal of patience. It's like waiting for paint to dry. You're just waiting, waiting, waiting,
and trying different things, and nothing works, until something
either works or something happens, and it just comes together,
and I can't tell you why. - Explain what people do to kill
these special moments though.

[[27:09]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1629s) Because you kept saying,
"We have to protect this. We have to protect this"
- Once you're aware of it, it's harder to protect. Like, in the process of it happening,
if you realize this is it... It's like what is it in golf? The yips. When you're playing golf, if you start thinking about it
instead of just being in it, you can't do it anymore. So, it's almost like you
have to get out of yourself to allow it to happen. Maybe not me, but for the artist. The artist has to get to
this place where it's like, they don't even know they're doing it. It just happens. It's not a performance. It's something else. It's a... It's this... A real moment
happens, and it's thrilling. - I think you're speaking
to my soul right now, because there's something I heard
Steph Curry talk about one time, when they were like, "What do you
think of when you're taking a shot?"

[[28:18]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1698s) And he goes, "Absolutely nothing." - Exactly. - And so, when I read books
for a living, essentially- - Yeah.
- before I started this, and people... I've had authors reach out to me after
I did their book, and they're like, "How did you get to the essence of it?" Like, "What were you thinking? What were you thinking of
when you're doing this?" And I was like, "Nothing." I just read, and if something
jumps out to me, I don't think at all. I just underline it.
- That's it. - And then I'll go back through
when I reread the highlight. If it's still interesting,
it was interesting the first time. - Yeah.
- Now it's interesting the second time. - Yeah.
- It's probably interesting... - It's interesting. - There's 10 million "Mes" out there. - Yeah.
- I'm not unique. - Same. - And there's no way I read this line
twice, and if I read it on a podcast, that somebody else is not
going to think of it as interesting. It's like, if I overthink
it or if I think of, "Oh, this person might hear it,"
or this many people will hear it... - Gets in the way. - Nothing. I'm thinking of nothing. - Yes. - That's really interesting. So let me, let me
ask you this, though. So you're fu***** Rick Rubin. 
You can do whatever you want. Why are you choosing to spend
so much time podcasting then? I like meeting the people. And even before the
podcast started, I would still.

[[29:21]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1761s) If someone was interesting to me,
I would reach out to them, want to spend time 
with them, hang out with them, and just learn from them, really. I can remember the one 
where it became obvious to do the podcast was Dana White.
Someone introduced me to Dana White. - I'm recording with him next week.
- Great. He's great. - He's incredible.
- He actually reached out to me. He's like, "Any time you
want to meet, I'm down." I was like, "Great, let's do it." We met, we sat at my house. We sat outside, 
we talked for about three hours, and at some point 
in the conversation, I said, "Do you mind if I record this? Because I feel like I'm 
not going to remember what we're saying,
and I'm really liking this story." And that was sort of a 
break through of like, this is kind of
what doing a podcast is like. I already do this in my life. I don't record them, 
but I meet the people that make things 
that are interesting to me, and I spend time with them,
and I listen to what they do, and I ask a lot of 
questions because I'm curious. So, it really is an outgrowth 
of my normal life, so I like doing that.

[[30:24]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1824s) - Deel is how the best founders turn the
world into their talent pool. I've been studying how history's 
greatest founders operate for a decade, and one thing they all have 
in common is they understand that recruiting and hiring the very best 
talent is your most important priority. A players recognize other A players, 
which is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, ElevenLabs, Uber, 
and DoorDash all use Deel. Many of the top founders I know
have personally invested in Deel after using their product. And what they discovered is that 
Deel is the best company in the world at building infrastructure for global hiring. Deel will help your business hire, pay,
and manage any worker anywhere in the world so you can retain the best talent
anywhere and spend the rest of your time focusing on what you do best: delivering value to your customers. The founder of ElevenLabs has a 
great description of the value Deel can give your company. 
He said, "We built ElevenLabs to break down
language and communication barriers. With Deel enabling us to hire and support
exceptional talent anywhere, we can accelerate our innovation and bring more voices, stories,
and ideas to every corner of the world."

[[31:25]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1885s) Deel is trusted by 
over 40,000 businesses. Learn how they can help your 
business today by going to deel.com/senra.
That is deel.com/senra. - We were talking before 
we started recording. I may be the person that's most 
obsessed with podcasting in the world. I listen to thousands of episodes.
- Mm-hmm. - I was listening to your podcast "
Broken Record" - Mm-hmm.
- back in the day. I was like, "This is incredible." And you were heavily into 
interviewing musicians back then. - That was the format of that show, 
was just talking to musicians. - And then "Tetragrammaton," you took, in
my opinion, to another level. And you're talking to all 
kinds of incredible people. I listen to I just had a conversation with
Tobi Lütke, founder of Shopify. - Yeah, amazing. - I used one of your episodes to prep
because he's such a unique mind. He's great.
- Great. - One of the most interesting 
conversations I had. But I analyze people, like there's a handful of podcasts
that are really great. There's a couple million in the directory. Only a handful are really great. 
Yours is really great, and I'm like, "Why the hell? It's unfair. This guy is gifted at music, 
and now he's gifted at podcasting. Why is this the case?" 
And what I came up with, and I started analyzing 
and thinking about what you do in your day job,
what you've done for over four decades.

[[32:32]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=1952s) And I was like,
"He's a professional listener." - That's true.
- He's listening to the guest. He is in the moment with the guest.
- Yes. -And it's like, that is one of the reasons
why, obviously, you have a lot of interesting things to say, but one of the
reasons, in my opinion, that you're so great at podcasting. Well, I think in real life people like to
talk and they don't like to listen. - And often in a conversation 
you'll be with someone, and they'll be saying something,
and you'll be thinking about, "Okay, this is what I'm going
to say in response to that." You're not really present. Back and forth,
that's what it is. Like, two people waiting 
for their turn to say what they think.
And this is different. And it really, I think it came from
listening to music, because I listen to music in a very deep way. I close my eyes.
I really pay attention. It's not wallpaper. It's like, I go into the music.

[[33:32]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2012s) In some ways, I think my 
relationship with music allowed me to never drink or take drugs, because listening to music for me
is totally a psychedelic experience. I can feel the music, and I can be transported by the music.
Not all music, but good music. So I close my eyes, I feel it, 
and then at the end of it, I open my eyes, and I'm surprised
where I am, because I've been gone when I'm listening. So I listen deeply, and I want to know. I really want to understand things. So, I'm comfortable asking questions, and I really listen to 
what someone's saying, and if someone says
something I don't understand, I'll ask a question to clarify 
so that I can understand it. I also don't have any judgment. I don't think that I have a way 
that my way is the right way, and I'm not comparing
what's being said to me about what I think. 
What I think is not part of it. I just want to truly understand 
what's being shared with me.

[[34:37]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2077s) And if someone says something that's 
very different than what I believe, I want to know more. 
It's like, "How did you get to that? Why do you think that?" Because maybe I'll learn something.
Maybe I have it wrong. I don't know anything. 
I want to know more. So through talking to people and really listening, 
you really get to meet people. And as a professional listener, I've found, some people, 
it's disarming to talk to someone who really listens, because it's so rare.
Most people don't listen. -When I listen to your podcast, I feel you
have this combination of sincere interest - Yes, true.
- in the other human being. - Yes. -And a desire, I think you just said this,
but the way I think about it is, the way I think about you when I was on your
podcast, is like a desire not to form an opinion, but to understand. That's it. 
- That's it. I just want to understand. I want to understand to broaden 
my scope, to see the world. I want to see the world
through your eyes.

[[35:38]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2138s) I want to see the world through.
Someone made something that's beautiful to me. I want to understand 
how they see the world. Someone makes a great discovery, I want to know what was the
process that allowed that to happen. I'm curious. - Yeah, there doesn't seem to be an end
to your curiosity either. - I'm interested. 
I've always been interested. I think of myself as a researcher. When the internet came along,
anything that I'm interested in, I'll go forever going deeper and deeper and deeper into a topic
just to get any glimpse, and to read opposing opinions,
and go deeper and deeper and deeper, and just trying
to understand. I'm curious. - You think of yourself as a researcher? - Yeah. - That's what I do most 
of the time, is research. - Okay, I don't know about this. 
Tell me about this. - Well, not a researcher
 in a professional way, - Mm-hmm. - but anything I'm interested in, I
want to know everything about it, whatever it is. And even mundane things.

[[36:39]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2199s) If I drink coffee, 
I want to find the best coffee. I want to read what every person who knows
about the best machine says about every machine, and then test every machine. And it's just a fanatical 
devotion to finding the best version of whatever it is. - Is it all-consuming for you when 
you find these pockets of interest? I'd say so. 
- There's no end. I don't get to an end to that process. -I admire people that do things for a very
long period of time, and you can tell a lot about people by what they admire. And it's just like, I want to do these
kind of podcasts till I die. Because like, what's success 
look like for you in five years, in 10 years? One, that I'm still
doing it, and two, that I'm just making things that I'm proud of.
- That's it. - There's no f***ing download number.
There's no how many ads I sell. It's just like that's it. - Exactly. -And I'm terrified that one day, I'm going
to wake up and be like, "I don't want to do this anymore." -No, but the only reason that would happen
is because something else would take over that you have to do, 
and that would be fine too.

[[37:42]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2262s) - I'm still terrified of it. - When I was nine years old, I spent a lot
of time practicing magic, like card magic, in front of a mirror.
- Mm-hmm. - And that was really fun, and there's a
whole community of magicians, and I was just a little kid, 
but like grown-up magicians. And if you're truly interested in magic, there are all these meetings,
and they get together and talk about stuff. And if you're an outsider,
everything's a secret, but if you're a magician, they love sharing. So it's a really cool
community to be part of, and that was my community 
from nine until probably 16. Those were the people I hung out with,
and that were the people that we shared this interest, 
and I just wanted to learn. And then music became 
more and more popular in my life. And then at some
point it's like, I can't do both. These are both full-time occupations. And when I say occupations, 
I don't mean jobs, I mean something to occupy my time.

[[38:44]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2324s) I can either devote myself to doing magic
or devote myself to doing music, and at some point, music won. But that wasn't a loss. 
I didn't lose anything. - That's a beautiful way 
to think about it. - Yeah. It's like, I let go of the thing
that I loved for this other thing that I loved that just took on this new life. And I've done music for a long time, and I like making other things too. And if my life became about 
making other things more than making music, that'd be okay. It's more about the making
that excites me. - This is why I kept asking do you think
you would making a podcast, we can have a conversation. We could be doing your show 
right now instead of mine. - Mm-hmm. - And at the end of this hour 
or two hours, it's done. We have something, 
and we could do it again tomorrow. The amount of time from 
creation to output is so much shorter than an album
 or even a great song.

[[39:47]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2387s) - True. - What you were saying, I think you called
yourself a lazy workaholic. - Yeah. - I was saying lazy alcoholic. 
Lazy workaholic. - Yeah.
- It's almost like, this isn't work. This doesn't feel like work to me.
Yeah. I was a little surprised with the way you
described working in music, that does feel like work to you. - Yeah, 
- for sure. - It's also work because I
have to show up. If you commit to be somewhere 
at a certain time, that's work, because that morning,
I might wake up and think, "I don't really want to do that today," 
but it's agreed to with other people. I'm going to be at this place,
and we're going to do this thing, so I have to show up. But most days I don't 
want to do the things that I'm scheduled to do.
- That's shocking to me, though. - At the time that I choose to do them,
I want to do them. I know I want to do them, but still, it's really nice not to
have to get out of bed, or it's nice to 
go for a walk on the beach. - So I think I might be well-positioned.
I'm just now getting advice from you because I'm a huge fan of you, 
and I respect the way you think.

[[40:50]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2450s) Anyway, I just did another 
podcast on the book you wrote, "The Creative Act," by the way, and just there are so many ideas that you
put into words that are in my head that I didn't have words for in there.
- Yeah. - So right now, I feel like I don't 
work a day in my life. - Yeah. - I feel like I wake up 
and I'm compelled, or like. I don't even know the word to use it. Then there's no doubt that I'm
just on the right path. - Yeah. - If I was sitting here and we weren't
recording, and I was just seeking your - Yeah, 
- same thing. advice, like I don't feel 
it's like work at all. The only time it feels like work is when
I have to edit, which I f***ing hate, but I do it anyways because
- Yeah. - I think it makes it better.
- Yeah. - But that's the only time.
- That's a good example. That's a good example. There are parts of it that 
are not always fun, and when you're
committing time, like time is our most valuable resource, and when we're committing our 
time to doing something in advance, which we do, we pre-schedule,
the day of, you don't always want to do that thing. - But I feel you have complete 
control over your time and your life. - Yes.
- How are you still. - I choose it, and I have to acknowledge,
no one's forcing me to do this.

[[41:55]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2515s) I said I would show up. I have to show up. But in your day-to-day, 
that still feels like work. - Yeah. It's like, I'd be
happy not doing anything. Well, I don't know.
I don't know if that's true, - There's no way. 
- Yeah, there's no way. because it's never been the case. - I've always because you could've 
stopped working decades ago. - Yes. - And I think you're addicted 
to making great shit. - Yes, and I'm lazy. 
It's a real part of it. I'm telling you an honest piece
of this, which is every day, it's not like,
"Let's go." Every day, it's like, "Oh, no, I gotta go work."
- You're disappointing me. - It's the truth. It's the truth.
- I'm sad. It feels like out of almost anybody in
the world - Yeah.
- that gets paid for being them - Yeah - is you. 
- Yes. - And you're saying that's not the case. - No, I'm me. I'm definitely me. There is a part of me that doesn't 
want to show up for anything, and I have to overcome that every day. 
That's what I'm saying.

[[42:55]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2575s) - Did you ever spend any time with Tony
Bourdain when he was alive? - Never have.
- Were you ever a fan of any of his. - Yeah. - Okay. So I read all his books, 
watched all his shows. And in his book, I was shocked, because that guy,
- Yeah. first of all, in his book, 
he describes what it's like to be a heroin addict, 
which is insane, and the amount. What you realize when you read
"Kitchen Confidential" is the same work ethic he used 
to score drugs as a broke junkie, once he broke that habit,
he just applied it to writing and building TV shows. His work ethic was the same.
- Yeah. - It was just directed at the 
worst thing possible, - Yeah.
- being a f***ing heroin addict. And then he directed it in a positive,
generative direction, and he took off. But he said something
very similar to you. He's like, "Somewhere deep 
inside me is this guy that just wants to smoke weed
and lay in bed all day." - Yeah.
- And he goes, "I have to fight." His writing's beautiful. He's like,"I have to fight that guy 
every single day." -Yeah. Now, what's also true, I do have to fight that guy to 
show up, and there are parts of the job that are just like
watching paint dry, waiting for something good to happen, but that moment of magic
when something good does happen is the thing I'm addicted to, that feeling of,
"It wasn't good. It's not good.

[[44:05]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2645s) Oh my god, it's good." And it's like a miracle because nobody
knows how or why that happened. It's not in our control. That's the other thing
about it, it really is magic. So I'm addicted to the magic part of it, but I'm not addicted to everything 
leading up to those magical moments. I'm patient. I'm patient enough to wait 
forever for that thing to happen, but it's not fun. Like, some people 
really look forward to fishing. It's like fishing. It's like, you can go 
out and spend a whole day fishing and not catch any fish. It's like that. You can work in the studio for a
day or for a week, and nothing good can happen. 
That happens. It's out of our control. But when the good thing happens, 
it's like, ah, there it is. That's why we're here. - That fishing analogy 
is really important to me. I've heard you say this a few
- It's true. - years ago.
- It's the best example. - I heard Akon one time describe working
with Eminem, and he shows up into Detroit, and he gives him a call.

[[45:07]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2707s) He's like, "All right, I figure we're 
going to do a night session." These guys are usually nocturnal.
- Yeah. - Calls him at 7:00 p.m., and Em's like,
"Yeah, I'll see you tomorrow." And Akon's like, "Tomorrow?
What are you talking about?" Shows up and doesn't realize
that he treats it like a job. - Yeah.
- Shows up at 9:00 a.m. - Yeah. - Right? He's in the studio writing, like
you're saying, recording verses. - Yeah.
- I think it's, let's say, noon. He literally will be in the 
middle of a verse, and you're like, "Oh, I'll be right back.
I'm going to take lunch." - Yeah. - And he's like, "What?" He goes, comes
back at 1:00, goes back to work. 5:00, he says, "All right,
I'll see you the next day." - Yeah. - And people misunderstood what Akon was
saying, is like, he doesn't wait around for inspiration.
- No. - He shows up every day knowing
that if he does the work, - Yeah. - then it will come.
- Yes. - It's exactly what you're 
saying about fishing. - Yeah, and inspiration is a 
real thing too, but it's both. If you only wait for inspiration, 
it won't ever come. You have to work 
and be there and show up. If you're not in the practice of allowing the thing to happen, it won't happen.

[[46:07]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2767s) Doesn't mean it will. Just because you do
show up doesn't mean it will happen, but if you don't show up, it won't happen. - Brian Halligan founded HubSpot 20 years
ago, and he has this line about AI that I keep thinking about. He said, "Most companies are using 
AI to make their teams more productive, but the companies that will thrive make 
the company itself the intelligence." And that is exactly
what HubSpot does. HubSpot gives you AI that works, AI that actually knows your
customers and your business. Your AI needs to know what you know,
your actual customer conversations, your sales history, what worked 
last quarter, and what didn't. HubSpot connects AI to your real customer
data, so when it writes an email, it knows this customer asked about pricing
three weeks ago, it knows what campaign brought them in, and it knows that they
already contacted support twice this month, and that's when you
start seeing actual results. Visit hubspot.com to learn more. 
That's hubspot.com. - You got me into Johnny Cash, who is a
couple of generations before me, and not only was the music great, but I loved you
describing what went into making it.

[[47:11]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2831s) Will you talk about that? But there was something with 
the way I would distill down what you were saying, is constraints
are actually your friend. - Yeah.
- You can't do everything. So if you artificially constrain yourself,
it forces you to be more creative. Can you talk about this? I feel like you've 
used this a bunch in your career. - Yeah. It's like the idea of creating a
palette, and the albums that speak to me most are ones when you hear them, you know If an artist has 20 albums,
but you hear a song you know, "Oh, that has to be on 
that album, that seventh album, because that's the only album that
sounds like that." Even though the band always sounds like
the band, this group of songs sounds different than all the rest, and it may
be that it was either recorded in a different way, or all the songs were
about a particular thing, or they're using different instrumentation
than they used to use. I like it when an album stands
alone outside of an artist's career as a defining moment in time.
It's not just more of the same.

[[48:20]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2900s) -But how is that tied to these constraints
that you put on the work? That happens by coming up with a series of rules that only apply to this project. Those are the constraints. 
So that could be. - In the Johnny Cash example. -In Johnny Cash's case, the first one was,
I didn't know that it was going to be an acoustic album, 
which it turned out to be. - Mm-hmm. - But that was something that, through the
process of recording, I learned the most interesting version of this to me is when
he's singing alone, which was really the demos in my living room, 
him singing me songs. That sounded better than when 
we went into the recording studio with musicians and played them with a band. It wasn't as interesting.
 I didn't know that in advance. That wasn't a premeditated idea. And then, in terms of the material that he would sing, I grew up with this image. What spoke to me about Johnny Cash was
this image of the Man in Black, and the Man in Black is a mythical character.
Yes, it's Johnny Cash, but it's not just Johnny Cash.

[[49:27]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=2967s) It's like the mythical
Johnny Cash, the Johnny Cash who's the Man in Black. And the man, Johnny Cash,
could sing a funny song. The Man in Black probably 
wouldn't sing a funny song. So the material that we picked 
was always through the eyes of what's something that the Man in Black, the legendary, mythological character,
what would he sing? And those are the songs that we chose. - And so in this case, the constraints are
you, Johnny, a guitar. I think he said he didn't even use a pick.
- Yeah. Like his fingers every guitar.
- Yeah. - Every time he strummed 
the guitar, it was his fingers. - Yeah.
- And you guys in a house. - Yeah, but a big part of it, too, 
is the choice of material. That's a big part of it for those albums. - And it's looked at through the viewpoint
of, not a funny song, but a Man in Black would do this. - And not even just a funny song. It had to have a certain
amount of gravitas to fit a mythical character singing it.

[[50:33]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3033s) - When I think about everything I've read
about you, and as much as I've heard you speak, I feel like you would agree with
the statement that great things can't be made by a committee. - Correct. - It would be unusual
for that to be the case. - In many cases, it's just.
- There could be a band. It tends to water it down.
It tends to water it down. - So this is the case in companies, since
obviously, my main focus is on entrepreneurship.
- Yeah. - It's like, even if there is a group,
there's usually a main person. Is that the same thing in bands? Is there always, like, one like. There might be four guys in 
the band or five guys in the band. Is it usually the stronger
personality that has more influence? -In a band, what makes a band great is how the different musicians 
hear music and play together, and it doesn't have to be
a single point of view. The Beatles are a great 
example because John and Paul really were 
very different people and wrote different kinds of songs and
approached music in different ways. Jagger and Richards, same. 
There's opposition there.

[[51:36]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3096s) That goes against exactly what you said.
It's a different model. But then, like in 
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Tom Petty is really the flag bearer of the band, and everyone lines up behind Tom. They're all great, and they all can play
great things, and they all add incredible things, but Tom is sort of the final word
in what happens in that band. In a band like U2, it's democratic. 
Everybody in the band has to like it. If three of the guys like it and 
one of the guys doesn't, it doesn't happen, and that's 
another model that works for them. So if we go back to this designing in
constraints, your work with Johnny Cash was very simple. Go back all the way 40 years before that. I'm reducing, I'm not producing. I think in 2023 I listened to,
I don't know, 600 to 700 individual. Probably listened to two to 
three podcast episodes a day, so I don't know, 700, 900 episodes. I think the single best podcast
episode that I listened to all that year was your episode on "Tetragrammaton" 
with Jimmy Iovine.

[[52:40]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3160s) - Mm-hmm. - There was a story that you told in there
that was very fascinating, because Jimmy's, I think, 10 years older than you.
Kind of like 10 years. - Almost exactly ten years older.
- Yeah. - Our birthdays are a day apart. Yeah, and you tell this phenomenal story
on the podcast of one of the first. It might have been the first 
time you met Jimmy Iovine. He said something that was so strange. You go to play something
you're working on. - Yeah.
- And he goes, "I wish I could still make 
something that simple." - Yeah. - And your response was, 
"I'm sure you can." - Yeah. What do you mean? - Explain why he said that 
and what's happening. What happens over time. - Yeah, because he was a producer. - And as you learn more 
of what you can do, you tend to do that. 
They tend to get bigger. At that point in time, 
I hadn't done it enough. It was my first record. So The Cult "Electric" 
was my first rock record. - This is after almost a decade in hip-hop
or half a decade in hip-hop? - No.
- No? - No.
- When was this?

[[53:41]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3221s) - Same. Like same time.
- Oh, okay. - Yeah. This is like 19.
- Is this when you moved to California? - No. This is still in New York.
- Oh, shit. Okay. So give me the. - I'm still living in the dorm.
I'm still living in the dorm at NYU. - Oh my God.
- Yeah. - I thought this was. Okay, so this is
the very beginning. So it's as simple as
- Yeah. - it gets because that's all you can do. - Yeah. I was doing what I was. - Very simple, but I stayed 
true to that as much as I can. There have probably been a
couple of examples along the way where 
I may have not stayed true. Very few. If you look at 
my whole recorded discography, there may be two or three
examples where it got out of control, or where the artist that I'm working with
just had a very different vision, which does happen sometimes, and usually we end
up not working together again. And there have been one or two occasions
where we end up not even finishing a work because it's just too. We just see it in a different way. I had that experience with Joe Cocker. We went into the studio to record, 
and I had a specific vision of how I saw Joe Cocker and what I thought
was great about Joe Cocker, and he really had a vision of it being something
different than that.

[[54:49]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3289s) And we weren't on the same page, 
and it didn't jive, so it never happened. - I'm curious your perspective, since
you've known Jimmy Iovine for so long, because he has another singular career
kind of in music the whole time, but he
- Yeah. - Different jobs.
- jumped around. - Yeah, different job from engineer to
producer to record company owner, to then - Yeah.
- building businesses with his artists. - Yeah. - What do you think is special about him?
What's unique about him? Why was he able to do 
what he was able to do? - He's got good taste, 
and he's got a great work ethic. Those are the two. To me, in my mind, you two are very,
almost, before this conversation I'm - Yeah. - having with you, almost at opposite ends
of the spectrum, where I felt like you were just drawn like a moth to a flame
about what you want to do. - Yeah. - Where he's like, "It was always work. 
I never liked it." - Yeah.
- It was always a job. - Yeah. - Like, "I like certain
parts of it, but I just..." He's essentially just 
forced himself to do it. -He said something really interesting that
I thought really summed it up, which was, "Jimmy is in 
the banking business."

[[55:50]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3350s) These are his words. He said, "I'm in the banking business, and you're in the
church business, and that's the difference."
- Explain that. I love this. -It's that I'm doing a passion and belief, and he's doing a bottom line. What's going to work? 
What's going to be good for business? And it's just two different things, 
two different mentalities. - There's a great line in 
"The Defiant Ones" where he hears. He's producing Tom Petty, 
and he hears a song, and he goes, "This is house music." And Tom goes, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Find me,
"whatever, "eight more albums." He goes, "That song's going
to buy you a house." - Yeah. So that's.
- And Tom. - We're different in that way. - And Tom goes, "I've never heard somebody
describe music that way." - Yeah.
- Like, "This is going to buy me a house." - Yeah. - There's a bunch of stories that Jimmy
tells in that podcast with you about the crazy things that you see in 
the music business, where. I think he tells a story 
of Phil Spector coming to the studio in a butcher's outfit, and he's got guns strapped 
to him everywhere, and David Geffen's in the studio, 
and John Lennon's getting drunk.

[[56:59]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3419s) Do you have any things 
that stand out from you? I've never heard you here tell any of these stories of 
stuff you've seen inside the studio. - I can remember doing a session with ODB,
Ol' Dirty Bastard from Wu-Tang. - Wu-Tang Clan. -And I remember being nervous, because I'd
never met him before, and his reputation preceded him, so I didn't really know
what I was going into. And I thought, 
"I'm going to bring my dog." I had a Puli, which is a 
dog that has dreadlocks. And whatever's going on, if you see a dog
with dreadlocks, it's interesting. Like, it's fascinating in its own way. And I had a friend of mine also filming
everything, because I thought, "Well, if there's a camera, and 
if there's a dog, it's going to be okay." - What was his reputation 
for you to do this, though? - All kinds of crazy
things, like - Violence? - Could be violence, could be a lot of
things that would not be good. - Yeah.

[[57:59]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3479s) - And just things I wasn't 
really prepared for. But I loved him. You know, I was a fan. And I remember we walked in, and he looked, and he 
pointed at the dog, and he said, "He's okay." And then he pointed at
the camera, "He's got to go." I was like, "Okay." And then he went, and then the session 
ended up going pretty well. - We mentioned Tobi Lütke earlier, and in
the conversation I had with him that was very fascinating, he said something where
he's just like, " There's not one right way to do things.
- Yeah. There's probably 100."
- Yes. - Which I think you would agree with.
- Yes. - And he's like, "You just have to find the
one that fits best for you." - Yeah.
- And just do that. Yeah. And you would think this German computer
programmer engineer would be very rigid, but when you talk to him, he essentially
just runs his life by all intuition. Yeah.
You are all intuition. All intuition. Explain why, essentially, your entire
life is, in my opinion, managed or run by your intuitive feelings?

[[59:04]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3544s) Yeah. I've always been true to what I
feel, and it's worked out. I suppose if it didn't work out, then maybe I would
have to try something else. But the fact that I've stayed 
true to what feels right to me, and luckily, by the grace of God, 
it has resonated with other people, it allows me to continue doing it. 
But I suppose if that didn't happen, I would just make things for myself 
on a small level and keep doing it, and have a real job. - Is this, your guided 
by intuition, tied to. I feel you have a scepticism
of human knowledge. I think you've said,
"I think we know very little about everything."
- Yeah. -Thomas Edison has this famous quote where
he's like, "We don't know 1/1000th percent of anything." - Yeah. I believe that. 
I believe we don't know anything. - Yeah, so if you believe you don't know
anything, then the only other thing you could do is be guided by your intuition. - Yeah. And to try things
and see what works. And just because one thing works 
doesn't mean that's the way it happens. That's a way that happened
to work in that case.

[[60:06]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3606s) - I found one of my all-time favorite
quotes when I was reading the book "Zero to One." The quote says, "The single most
powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in
unexpected places, and they do this by thinking about business from first
principles instead of formulas." That is exactly what 
AppLovin has done with their advertising platform, Axon. Axon connects you with over a billion potential new customers
inside mobile games. Axon allows you to capture
undivided attention. Axon ads are full-screen video ads that 
are watched for an average of 35 seconds. That is retention that blows other 
ad platforms out of the water. You can launch on Axon in minutes. 
You set the goal, and Axon achieves it. There's no complex setup, 
no expertise needed, and Axon scales quickly. They can put your ads in front of 
over a billion potential customers. Other businesses have seen immediate
results, have scaled to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day,
and increased their revenue by millions.

[[61:08]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3668s) So, you want to get started quickly
before all your competitors are on Axon. And you can do that by going to
axon.ai/senra. That is axon.ai/senra. - I heard you one time compare and
contrast the approach of Jay-Z to Eminem. - Yeah.
- You worked with both of them. Can you talk about just 
how different they are? - Yeah. Em is much more. Well, he writes down the lyrics, 
and he's really studious in the way that he works, and he'll also
record take after take after take after it's written, and try different things.
Jay is much more spontaneous. It all happens in his head, and then he'll get up 
and say it once or twice, and that's it. -What's the energy when you're in the room
with both of them, though? -Em is totally involved in every aspect of
everything, and Jay is like, "Play me a bunch of stuff.

[[62:11]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3731s) If I hear something 
I like, I'll think about it, and if not, I'll see you tomorrow." It's like, "Jay will only be there
when he needs to be there," and if he hears something that
sparks an idea, he'll sit and just say, "Just play it over and over again. Play the music over and over again," 
and he sits in the back, and you almost. It goes on long enough where you forget
he's even there because he's just silent in the corner listening, sitting on a
couch, listening over and over again. 30 minutes, 25 minutes later, 
he's like, "I got it," jumps up. He runs into the room, hits record, 
and he does the whole thing, just from his head. It's amazing. He's the only person 
I've ever seen do that. - I think a lot of people know that he did
Magna Carta Holy Grail, essentially in two weeks.
- Mm. Like, he did the whole
album in two weeks. - Most of his albums 
were made very quickly. - Yeah. What's always interesting to me
it's like, yeah, he recorded them in two weeks, but these ideas,
he's been refining. It's not like when he's
not in the studio, he's not thinking about these. He's refining these ideas 
over a long period of time.

[[63:11]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3791s) - Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some of them, it all happens 
in a weekend, the whole thing. - That's crazy.
- Yeah. As opposed to Em, who 
will work on a song forever. - Yes. Very different. 
Just two different styles. Both amazing, but they
just come at it from different. I think it's just 
different personality types. - What do you think Em's
personality type is then? - I would describe him as obsessive. He's really a perfectionist, willing to do whatever 
it takes for it to be great, and diligent, hardworking.
And Jay's much more relaxed. It just kind of happens for him. He's doing it, 
but it's just a different style. - Of the two, which one do you think that
your working style is closer to? - I do different things, 
so it's hard to say.

[[64:11]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3851s) What I do changes 
according to who I'm working with. Whatever the artist
needs is what my job is. So, in some cases
it's totally hands-off, and in some cases it's, "Well, we got to start from the beginning 
and try to figure this out together." - Oh, so you know what? I'm thinking like,
it's kind of tied to what you were saying about being a professional listener, that
you take a sincere interest in the person whether you're recording 
a podcast with them or you're working with them in the studio. And so, your goal,
if I'm reading this correctly, is just like, has really 
nothing to do with you. You feel you're an act 
of service to try to get them to be the best version of themselves.
- Yeah. - Is that the way you think about it?
- Yes. I'd say that's accurate. Do you have anybody that plays 
that role in your life for you? - I don't know if I do.
Didn't know if anyone produces me. Could they reduce you? I don't know if
there's anything to reduce here.

[[65:12]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3912s) - Yeah. I don't know. Luckily, I have
friends and family who are not particularly 
interested in what I do. So, I have reality around 
me, a lot of just like, "That's crazy." Like, a lot of,
"That's a bad idea." - Mm-hmm. - And it's interesting for me because some
ideas I hear, "That's a bad idea," and it's like, 
Okay, maybe you're right." And many ideas, it's like, 
"I'll show you, it's a good idea. I feel I have to do this." - Yeah. I could see that 
you take a lot of input, but I think you would be resistant to. - I won't change my mind, but I'm open to hearing ideas and 
definitely open to help. If someone suggests something that
makes it better, and I see that, it's like, that's the best. I'm not
close-minded. Because someone offers information, 
even experienced wisdom, I might not always choose 
to use that information.

[[66:15]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=3975s) -Do you think you have a big ego?
- I don't think so. - You have a lot of 
self-confidence, though. - I have a lot of self-confidence.
- But they even said. Somebody met you
when you were 19, and they were like, "That's the most self-confident
19-year-old I ever met." - Yeah.
I think that's the mix. I think, luckily, I learned to 
meditate when I was young, and meditation's been 
a big part of my life. So, it's never been about ego. 
It's never been about me. I'm confident in being able 
to share what I'm experiencing. I hear something like, "That's amazing,"
and I hear something else that's like, "You know, it's not good enough," and
nothing anyone can say will tell me otherwise. It's like I know. 
I can feel it. -So, this confidence in your own judgment,
because you were just saying you could - Yeah. - have somebody that has a lot of
experienced wisdom. - When I say confidence in my own judgment
in, this is how I see it. I'm not saying I'm right. I never say, "I'm right" or "I
know what's best," none of those things. This is how I see it. I see it clearly.
This is how I would vote for it.

[[67:18]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4038s) If I get to vote, I vote for this. But it's not my way or
the highway at all. - What is your inner monologue like when
you're making something? Is it positive? Negative? Are you self-critical? Depends. I would say 
it's rarely critical. What I usually use is 
that it starts apprehensive when we start, 
because it could be anything. So, at first, it's scary because I don't know
what's going to happen. - Even today? - Even today. And there's usually an
expectation because I've had success in the past that if I'm there,
it's going to be great. So I feel this pressure of expectation,
and I know I can't control anything. It's going to be 
the way it's going to be. I know I'm patient, and I
know I'll wait until it's great. And we start by experimenting and see what it could be, and as 
soon as there's a glimmer, as soon as I hear something
that's good, then I relax. But until then, it's too open, you know?
It could be too many things.

[[68:21]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4101s) But once something 
lands, whatever it is, I relax. It's like, "Okay, we have 
at least a direction to move in." It doesn't mean we
stay in that direction forever, but having a direction is better 
than not having a direction. And when we start, 
we don't have a direction. - So, you would say you don't have a
self-critical inner monologue constantly playing in your mind? Never. It's interesting. 
The reason I ask you this question is because I was with 
an entrepreneur yesterday. The guy's worth
10 billion dollars, and he wakes up every morning at 5:30, just assuming he's going out of business, 
and is essentially paranoid. He lives like a paranoid life, 
- Yeah. - and that's why he thinks he's good. This is very common with a lot of people.
- Yeah. - And I used to have a
self-critical, kind of mean. I was fu***** pretty mean to myself. This guy named Brad Jacobs, we
actually had him on the show, and I've talked to him a bunch. And he used to have that too, 
and now he's in his 60s. He's like, "It's counterproductive.
 It's not helping anything."

[[69:22]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4162s) I talk about this on the podcast. You can hear me mentioning 
it over and over again for a few years, and just something one day I
just fu***** snapped, and I just don't do that anymore.
- That's great. - And I went back, and I was reading my
notes on you, and I was just telling my partner Rob about this, just the way I
look at the work we're doing now. It's like I like Rick's framework, that, like, if you look at your work, 
it's just like an entry to a diary. - Yeah. -It's like, there's nothing to be critical
about, because you did the best you possibly could have done.
- In that moment. - In that moment.
- Yeah. - And then, that was 10 years ago, 
and that was five years ago. - Yeah.
- And then what we're making today is. - Yeah, and I might not do the same thing I would have done 10 years ago, 
and that's fine. But I don't have any regrets about "10
years ago, that's what I thought." That's real. 
Each of those installments is real. So, it's always true. It doesn't mean that 
that's who you are forever. That's who you are in that moment.
It's really freeing. It's helpful for an artist to 
think that way because usually, especially when we're younger, we think
the thing that we make is "This is my magnum opus and this is going
to define me for the rest of my life."

[[70:28]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4228s) And it's a daunting hill to climb.
But when you realize it's like, "This is just the one today, and
we're going to make another one tomorrow. And hopefully, the one tomorrow's going to
be as good or better than the one today." What's true today? What's the one I usually 
say that if you are excited to share it with your friend. Like, if I'm working in the 
studio and, long before a record comes out, if we're making
something, and if someone comes. And I'm excited to play it for my friend, who has good taste,
who I know likes good music. - Mm.
- It could come out then. If I want to play it for them, 
that's good enough for everybody. Do you know what I'm saying?
- Yeah. - But usually, artists will feel like,
"Well, I'll play this for my boys. But it has to be a lot better 
before regular people can hear it," and that's ridiculous. It's like, as soon as I liked it enough
to share it with one person, chances are it's ready for everybody.

[[71:38]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4298s) - I've seen you talk to a ton of musicians
and artists on camera. I just finished rereading a profile that 
was in Colossus Magazine on Josh Kushner, and it starts with him 
coming to seek your counsel. There's a ton of people 
who come to seek your counsel. And I feel like your modus operandi 
is holding up a mirror to them, and just telling them to do what they
know they want to do. But it's somehow more valuable 
if they hear it from somebody else. Does that make sense to you?
Do you resonate with that at all? - Yeah, that sounds right. - I mean, there are occasions where 
someone will come to me and say, "I'm thinking about doing
this crazy thing," and I'll say, "Mm, I wonder about that." But more often than not, when 
people share their hopes and dreams, that's all you need to know. It's like, "These are my hopes and dreams,
but I'm afraid of this, this and this." Most often it's, "Go with the
hopes and dreams. Don't worry about any of that stuff, 
because that stuff doesn't matter." - What is the stuff that
they're afraid of, overhear?

[[72:40]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4360s) - "What someone is going to say? 
Will I be able to keep doing it? My last one was successful. 
What do I do now?" Success is a funny thing. You know, when you're young
and you get successful quickly, no one is prepared for that. And it's awkward and uncomfortable, 
and you think that's the thing you want, but when you get it,
it's not what you think it is. It's very different. And there are all these pressures that
come with it that no one is ready for, and no one learns how to do. And it's not like whoever you learn good 
habits from over the course of your life, they don't know how to deal with it, because they never got 
overnight famous or successful. - Mm-hmm.
- It's a weird thing. So, a lot of artists kind 
of implode in success. - Okay, so I want to ask you, why you have
not imploded over this many decades? One of the most interesting things that Jimmy Iovine told me. 
We talked a lot about this, because I'm obsessed with people
that are just further down the line than I am.
- Yeah.

[[73:46]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4426s) - It's like there's just the wisdom they
gain from experience. I got the book knowledge. I need the stuff that is not
in there, that they can tell you. And he was just like, 
"Most people cannot handle." You know, you guys have been 
around some of the most talented people, genius-level talents that 
have completely imploded, maybe destroyed their lives,
maybe died prematurely. And so, he broke it down into four things
for me. There's just like, "People can't handle stress, and these are the pitfalls, David, 
that you should watch out for." One was drugs, the second was
alcohol, the third was women, and the fourth was megalomania. It's really hard to get on stage, and
there's 80,000 people screaming your name, and over time they just think
there's some kind of. They're not even human anymore, which you seem to be like,
"I'm not special. I have no." I know you say you have no 
talent and all this other shit. - Yeah.
- Like, "I'm not special." - Yeah. - I think there's a lot of wisdom to that.
It's just like, man, there's 10 million "Mes" and 10 million "Yous".
- Yeah. - All over the world or whatever that is.
- Yeah. - Do you think Jimmy's perspective on that
is like, the people that you've seen that had talent and had success and then
destroyed it, is there anything else that he's missing from there?

[[74:52]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4492s) I think those are all of them. Because the last one
takes into account a lot of. There's both the mask of over confidence and ego, which is hiding insecurity, or there's the insecurity, 
but they're really the same. You know, they're just presenting
in two different ways. Two different people 
have the same overnight success. One of them gets really boastful, "I'm
the greatest that ever lived," and the other one is like "Oh, my God, they're going to find 
out that I'm really a fake." But those are both the same people.
They're two sides of the same coin. The megalomania is a way 
of hiding the insecurity. It's a brave face. They might not know this. 
They rarely know it.

[[75:53]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4553s) You know? It's different sides
of the same imbalance. - So, that leads me to the question I
hinted at, or maybe even said: How have you sustained success over
such a long period of time then? - I think the fact that I learned to
meditate when I was young, and always had a grounded. And the fact that I know it's not me.
It's like those two things. Like, I'm grounded, and I know I'm lucky to participate in this
magic that's happening. I get to be in the room when it happens. 
But it's not from me. - Mm-hmm.
- What do you mean it's not from you? - I'm in the service of it.
- You're a conduit? Is that what you mean? - Yeah, I would say that.
I'm in the service of it. I'm devoted to setting the 
stage to allow it to happen, and I'm patient and 
waiting for it to come. It's not like when it's great, it's like,
"I did a great job." - Mm-hmm.
- It's not that.

[[76:53]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4613s) - No, I think the people that sustain
greatness over time, even if they do something great, they 
don't rest on their laurels. They don't go to sleep on wins.
They just make something great. They're like, "All right. 
Try to do - Next.
- it again the next day." And they don't really think too much.
Jimmy Iovine, I keep bringing him up, but he has that great line, which is like, "I don't have a rearview mirror, 
and I don't have a trophy room." - Yeah.
- He's just like, "I don't give a." Even when he did the show, he's like, 
"I don't want to talk about the past. I want to talk about 
what I'm working on in the - Yeah.
- future." They're all like that. I just had lunch
with Jeffrey Katzenberg, same thing. He was like, "Yeah, we can do the show, but I want to talk about 
what I'm working on now, not just what happened at 
Disney and everything else." - Yeah.
- It's just very, very common. - Yeah, yeah. - Like, staying in the
moment, being present. Tell me if you disagree 
with me, because again, I have this interpretation
of you in my mind, because I've been a fan 
of yours for a very long time, and going back to this sustained 
success over a long period of time. I talked to James Dyson, 
the guy who invented. You know,
the vacuum cleaner guy. - Mm-hmm.
- And he's a fascinating person to me. Number one person I wanted to meet, 
because his first autobiography, I think, is so great, 
because it's all about him just enduring through 
struggle and refusing to quit. And something I didn't understand, even
though I read his first autobiography five times and his second autobiography
two or three times.

[[77:59]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4679s) I love obsessed people. 
- He's an inventor. - He wrote an encyclopedia while 
he was building his company on a history of gray dimensions, and he's.
- Got it. - There's like f***ing
200 adventures in there. He is like,
"Look at this little weird thing," and he's just like
completely obsessed. Obsessed. But what I didn't understand what was
driving him was, he told me this great story on the podcast where he goes, "This is his simple organizing principle." He's like, 
"I pick up a product, right? Cup. Pick up a product. It exists. I go, 'How can I make 
this product better?'" Makes it better, puts it back down. 
Waits a little bit, picks it up, goes, "How can I make it better?"
Makes it better, puts it down. He goes, "I just do that over and over again.
- Yeah. - I've been doing it for 50 years.
- Yes. - So, if I had to guess, what your
organizing principle was, that I think also influences the sustained success
that you've had, is you just making things that you yourself like.
- That's it. - And sometimes I'll go into a friend's
house, and I'll think, "Hmm, the furniture in here isn't 
arranged in the best way. Maybe I'll rearrange the furniture."
- No, you don't. - I've done that.
I've done that.

[[79:00]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4740s) - What does your friend say?
- Depends. Some are cool with it. Some are like, "He's crazy," you know?
- Okay. Well, say more about this, like. - Well, it's just seeing the possibility. I've worked on a lot of living spaces, and the idea of designing a house from scratch is a daunting one to me. I can't imagine doing that because 
there's too many options. But if there's a house that exists. I might be able to see, well, what's the best version of 
this thing that already exists? Same with music. It's like, I hear what's there, and now,
what's the best version of this? What can we do to make it better?
What can we do to make it better? - Same thing as James Dyson. 
- Exactly the same. - Yeah, and I feel like you did this from
the jump, when you were like, "Well, I'm in the club. I'm obsessed going to the club. 
The hip-hop club is incredible," right?

[[80:01]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4801s) - Yeah. - But I like this stuff that's here. I go to the record store.
I'm buying this stuff that I don't like. - It's not real.
- Yeah, so I was like, I want the real one. "Why don't I just make 
what I actually like?" - Yeah. - And it wound up 
working out fabulously. - Yeah. But again, I didn't know in advance
it would work out fabulously. It's just like, 
"This is what I want to hear. I'm making it for me." - These are my favorite kind of people
because, again, it goes back to why are you doing what you're doing? And you're doing it because 
you wanted to make it to - I want it in the world. you were willing to just
make music at night and have a normal job, just because you liked doing it. - Absolutely. I never thought 
of any of this as a job. It's never been about that. It's only a job because I'm
committed to show up. That's what makes it a job. The actual craft of making
things is what I like to do. - What would have to happen for you to
basically disappear, and stop working with musicians, and stop making podcasts? - I think I would just keep 
making things for myself.

[[81:01]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4861s) I give the example in the book of, if you were to move into a house
on the top of a mountain that no one could ever come and visit, and you made
that the place that you most wanted to spend your time, and 
you really curated it to your taste. - Mm.
- That's the job. - It's not about, "I'm making 
this to show off to someone else." I'm making this because 
I want to inhabit this. I make the music 
that I'm excited to listen to. Now, it's ridiculous, it
doesn't work out that way because, in making the music, we work on it, we 
listen to it 1,000 times, and then when it's done, 
it's fine if I never hear it again. I never put on music I worked on, which
is funny because I'm making it to be the perfect version of what I want to hear. But in the process of doing that, 
there's so much listening involved that it's not fun to go
back and listen to it for me. I want to hear something new.

[[82:01]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4921s) - This idea of the example that you use in
the book of the house on the mountain. - That no one will ever see. - Say more about the thinking 
behind that, though. - Well, I just know for me, I don't decorate my home to 
impress someone else. I decorate my home to be the best version
of the house that I want to live in. And it's not typical. I'm willing to go to
extremes to make the thing that I want to inhabit. And it's not for 
anyone else, it's just for me. Now, often other people,
if they do happen to come over, like, "Wow, I'd love to
live in a place like this. I've never been in a place like this." - I think the metaphor that you're using
there is almost like a map for people to find their life's work if 
they haven't found it yet. - Yeah. - It's like, "What are you 
already doing - Yeah.
- for you?" - And what will you do no matter what? What won't you stop doing regardless?

[[83:02]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MEDOY7tHo&t=4982s) - I always say, it's like people say, "Oh,
if you love what you do, you would do it for free." And I say, "No, there's
another level to loving what you're doing. If you truly love what you do,
they couldn't pay you to stop." - Yeah. -I think it's excellent advice for helping
people find their life's work. Rick, this was awesome. - You've been a huge
inspiration to me. I've used a ton of your ideas in my work, and I hope this is the first conversation 
of many between me and you. - Great. Pleasure.
- Thanks for doing this. - Thank you.
- I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever 
you're listening and leave a review. And make sure you listen to 
my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've
obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's 
greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that 
you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear on
this show first found me through Founders.


---
*Transcribed with [Tacit](https://www.trytacit.app)*